Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

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Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Krüger,Ralf
Hi!
 
Currently I am testing different versions of FOSWIKI and I see different editors in the respective systems:

=> Foswiki-1.0.4-0 Starndard release / Foswiki-1.0.4-0-strawberry.exe
- the raw editor works but but doesn't display any fixed font and it can't be varied in size
- the WYSIWYG-editor "features" faulty handling (cf. http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item1392)

=>  Virtual Machine image / software appliance for novices
This machine features a neat and easy-to-use editor:
 - raw-edit features additional buttons
 - runs error-free also in IE7
 - the tab layout is easy to use, it looks neat and clear and it can easily be customized
 - nice presentation / layout of forms

Why is the original version not shipped with the obviously much better editor?

See video: http://screencast.com/t/HGHdb9JK

regards, Ralf

_____________________________________________________
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                 Dipl.-Wirt.-Ing. Klaus Reifenhäuser
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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Kenneth Lavrsen
Krüger wrote:
> Hi!
>  
> Currently I am testing different versions of FOSWIKI and I see different editors in the respective systems:
>
> => Foswiki-1.0.4-0 Starndard release / Foswiki-1.0.4-0-strawberry.exe
> - the raw editor works but but doesn't display any fixed font and it can't be varied in size
> - the WYSIWYG-editor "features" faulty handling (cf. http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item1392)
>  
This is not correct. The raw editor can show both fixed font and non-fixed.
It can also be varied in size.
So if you do not see this there is a problem with your installation.
I also do not see any problems with the raw editor in IE7 and I have
tested a lot in IE7.
> =>  Virtual Machine image / software appliance for novices
> This machine features a neat and easy-to-use editor:
>  - raw-edit features additional buttons
>  - runs error-free also in IE7
>  - the tab layout is easy to use, it looks neat and clear and it can easily be customized
>  - nice presentation / layout of forms
>  
It seems the virtual machine is not a real 1.0.4 release but a release
with a different skin and probably a rich text editor extension.
And I bet these have their bugs and compatibility problems as well.
> Why is the original version not shipped with the obviously much better editor?
>
>  
I see it the other way around. I think it is a problem that we do not
have a real 1.0.4 VM. We should have that. The Windows version and the
VM should exist in 1.0.4 default versions. It is quite OK for people to
distribute tailored versions with different skins etc but it should be
more clear that they are different versions. One problem is that for us
core developers we see bug reports we do not understand and it is not
always clear the bug is related to these tailored versions.

Kenneth

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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Eugen Mayer
In reply to this post by Krüger,Ralf
Hi Ralf,

i think both editors have their up and downs, but especially to the
question, what is shipped with the default Foswiki:

Actually, until we dont get feedback like yours, that most users feel,
that the default Foswiki can be made better by other not yet default
plugins, we aint changing.

Iam glad you like the editor came with the noivice VM, seem to fit your
needs.

br

Eugen

Am Montag, den 06.04.2009, 17:17 +0200 schrieb Krüger,Ralf:

> Hi!
>  
> Currently I am testing different versions of FOSWIKI and I see different editors in the respective systems:
>
> => Foswiki-1.0.4-0 Starndard release / Foswiki-1.0.4-0-strawberry.exe
> - the raw editor works but but doesn't display any fixed font and it can't be varied in size
> - the WYSIWYG-editor "features" faulty handling (cf. http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item1392)
>
> =>  Virtual Machine image / software appliance for novices
> This machine features a neat and easy-to-use editor:
>  - raw-edit features additional buttons
>  - runs error-free also in IE7
>  - the tab layout is easy to use, it looks neat and clear and it can easily be customized
>  - nice presentation / layout of forms
>
> Why is the original version not shipped with the obviously much better editor?
>
> See video: http://screencast.com/t/HGHdb9JK
>
> regards, Ralf
>
> _____________________________________________________
> Reifenhäuser GmbH & Co. KG Maschinenfabrik
> Spicher Straße 46-48,   D-53844 Troisdorf
> Registergericht Siegburg, Reg.Nr. HR A 1248        
> Persönlich haftende Gesellschafterin:
> Reifenhäuser GmbH
> Registergericht Siegburg, Reg.Nr. HR B 37
> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Volkswirt  Bernd Reifenhäuser
>                  Dipl.-Wirt.-Ing. Klaus Reifenhäuser
>                  Dipl.-Kfm.       Ulrich Reifenhäuser
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:
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--
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Impressive.media GbR

- Database  and (Web)Software Solutiones
- Consulting and Content Management Systems
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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Eugen Mayer
In reply to this post by Kenneth Lavrsen
Hello Kenneth,

i will make the new VM-1.0.4-1 in the next week. I just waited a bit to
see, if we happen to have any urgent bugs again, because the VM takes
quite some time to get ready.

Also iam going to use Svens debian packages and i waited to see, if its
all fine. The VM-1.0.0-3 did take some time to get up and running.

Best regards

Eugen

Am Donnerstag, den 09.04.2009, 11:08 +0200 schrieb Kenneth Lavrsen:

> Krüger wrote:
> > Hi!
> >  
> > Currently I am testing different versions of FOSWIKI and I see different editors in the respective systems:
> >
> > => Foswiki-1.0.4-0 Starndard release / Foswiki-1.0.4-0-strawberry.exe
> > - the raw editor works but but doesn't display any fixed font and it can't be varied in size
> > - the WYSIWYG-editor "features" faulty handling (cf. http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item1392)
> >  
> This is not correct. The raw editor can show both fixed font and non-fixed.
> It can also be varied in size.
> So if you do not see this there is a problem with your installation.
> I also do not see any problems with the raw editor in IE7 and I have
> tested a lot in IE7.
> > =>  Virtual Machine image / software appliance for novices
> > This machine features a neat and easy-to-use editor:
> >  - raw-edit features additional buttons
> >  - runs error-free also in IE7
> >  - the tab layout is easy to use, it looks neat and clear and it can easily be customized
> >  - nice presentation / layout of forms
> >  
> It seems the virtual machine is not a real 1.0.4 release but a release
> with a different skin and probably a rich text editor extension.
> And I bet these have their bugs and compatibility problems as well.
> > Why is the original version not shipped with the obviously much better editor?
> >
> >  
> I see it the other way around. I think it is a problem that we do not
> have a real 1.0.4 VM. We should have that. The Windows version and the
> VM should exist in 1.0.4 default versions. It is quite OK for people to
> distribute tailored versions with different skins etc but it should be
> more clear that they are different versions. One problem is that for us
> core developers we see bug reports we do not understand and it is not
> always clear the bug is related to these tailored versions.
>
> Kenneth
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:
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> Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/foswiki-discuss
--
Eugen Mayer - Geschäftsleitung
Impressive.media GbR

- Database  and (Web)Software Solutiones
- Consulting and Content Management Systems
- WebDesign & WebProgramming
- Individual Hosting & WebHosting
- Centralized Office Solutiones for Address, Email, Data, and PDA

Home : www.impressive-media.de
Fon  : 0761 - 7669439
Fax  : 0711 - 4907629655
Mail : [hidden email]

Impressive.media GbR
Nägeleseestr. 28
79102 Freiburg



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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Martin Seibert
In reply to this post by Kenneth Lavrsen
Hi Kenneth,

did you see this video?
http://screencast.com/t/HGHdb9JK

I think it clearly shows, that the standard editor has significant  
deficiencies, that have been fixed elsewhere already. How can we  
incorporate the work of Eugen and Michael for the standard? Is that  
wanted. I definitely think so.

Best regards

Martin Seibert

Am 09.04.2009 um 11:08 schrieb Kenneth Lavrsen:

> Krüger wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> Currently I am testing different versions of FOSWIKI and I see  
>> different editors in the respective systems:
>>
>> => Foswiki-1.0.4-0 Starndard release / Foswiki-1.0.4-0-strawberry.exe
>> - the raw editor works but but doesn't display any fixed font and  
>> it can't be varied in size
>> - the WYSIWYG-editor "features" faulty handling (cf. http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item1392)
>>
> This is not correct. The raw editor can show both fixed font and non-
> fixed.
> It can also be varied in size.
> So if you do not see this there is a problem with your installation.
> I also do not see any problems with the raw editor in IE7 and I have
> tested a lot in IE7.
>> =>  Virtual Machine image / software appliance for novices
>> This machine features a neat and easy-to-use editor:
>> - raw-edit features additional buttons
>> - runs error-free also in IE7
>> - the tab layout is easy to use, it looks neat and clear and it can  
>> easily be customized
>> - nice presentation / layout of forms
>>
> It seems the virtual machine is not a real 1.0.4 release but a release
> with a different skin and probably a rich text editor extension.
> And I bet these have their bugs and compatibility problems as well.
>> Why is the original version not shipped with the obviously much  
>> better editor?
>>
>>
> I see it the other way around. I think it is a problem that we do not
> have a real 1.0.4 VM. We should have that. The Windows version and the
> VM should exist in 1.0.4 default versions. It is quite OK for people  
> to
> distribute tailored versions with different skins etc but it should be
> more clear that they are different versions. One problem is that for  
> us
> core developers we see bug reports we do not understand and it is not
> always clear the bug is related to these tailored versions.
>
> Kenneth
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:
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> Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now!
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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Kenneth Lavrsen
My remark was not an argument against the improved raw editor.

I just want to see a VM being the same version as the one we ship. And I
noted that the current very raw - raw editor does not have the problems
reported when properly installed. In the lower right corner you are
supposed to see 4 buttons. Two for changing the fixed-width and not
fixed width font. And two to resize the window. If you do not see these
there is something wrong with the installation.

Kenneth

Martin Seibert wrote:

> Hi Kenneth,
>
> did you see this video?
> http://screencast.com/t/HGHdb9JK
>
> I think it clearly shows, that the standard editor has significant  
> deficiencies, that have been fixed elsewhere already. How can we  
> incorporate the work of Eugen and Michael for the standard? Is that  
> wanted. I definitely think so.
>
> Best regards
>
> Martin Seibert
>
> Am 09.04.2009 um 11:08 schrieb Kenneth Lavrsen:
>
>  


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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Crawford Currie
In reply to this post by Krüger,Ralf
Hi Ralf,

Krüger wrote:
Hi!
 
Currently I am testing different versions of FOSWIKI and I see different editors in the respective systems:

=> Foswiki-1.0.4-0 Starndard release / Foswiki-1.0.4-0-strawberry.exe
- the raw editor works but but doesn't display any fixed font and it can't be varied in size
- the WYSIWYG-editor "features" faulty handling (cf. http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item1392)

=>  Virtual Machine image / software appliance for novices
This machine features a neat and easy-to-use editor:
 - raw-edit features additional buttons
 - runs error-free also in IE7
 - the tab layout is easy to use, it looks neat and clear and it can easily be customized
 - nice presentation / layout of forms

Why is the original version not shipped with the obviously much better editor?
  
I see from your video that the VM you are using has been bundled with NatSkin. The standard Foswiki release ships with Pattern skin. I know they are visually almost the same, but as you have discovered they are quite different under the hood.

So, your question really boils down to "why don't we ship NatSkin with the standard release". Well, there are a whole bunch of reasons. Here are some of them.
  1. NatSkin's nice functionality comes at a price. There are quite a few plugins required in the background, and these bloat the release, increasing the amount of code that has to be supported.
  2. The availability of people prepared to support the skin in a public release. Pattern skin is relatively simple, and a lot of people have the skills required to support it. NatSkin is significantly more complex, and there are fewer people in a position to support it.
  3. Familiarity. A lot of people "grew up" with Pattern skin. As we saw in the TWiki project recently, when WYSIWYG was introduced to a large corporate, it resulted in people running around like headless chickens, due to the change.
I like a lot of the features of NatSkin, and it definitely fits many user profiles better than Pattern skin. As we experienced when the Foswiki.org site started up with NatSkin, it has it's own list of problems. It would be great to have some of the NatSkin features, such as the raw editor, separated out and incorporated in the standard release, but that takes time and effort, and no-one has stepped up to do it. But the Nat* family is all available for download for anyone who wants to use it, and I'm sure many people would choose it after a demo of the alternatives.

And that's what Foswiki is all about; choice. We choose to ship a simpler wiki, perhaps at the cost of some sexy features, to try and avoid the feature bloat that plagues some competitors. Perhaps we don't highlight all the possible features in the standard release, but we are trying to address a very broad spectrum of users, largely without the guidance or support of marketing. I would really, really welcome someone coming forward to drive the project towards a better out-of-the-box experience, but as is the case with so much free open source software, it's always someone else's problem.

Regards,

C.

-- 
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- C-Dot Consultants http://c-dot.co.uk
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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Martin Seibert
Hi all,

do we all agree, that it would be a cool step to improve the standard  
version with the editor-features of the Natskin version?

Crawford: I agree. Someone would have to deal with that. But in the  
first place we should find, that this is an improvement.

Best regards

Martin Seibert
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Am 09.04.2009 um 11:40 schrieb Crawford Currie:

> Hi Ralf,
>
> Krüger wrote:
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> Currently I am testing different versions of FOSWIKI and I see  
>> different editors in the respective systems:
>>
>> => Foswiki-1.0.4-0 Starndard release / Foswiki-1.0.4-0-strawberry.exe
>> - the raw editor works but but doesn't display any fixed font and  
>> it can't be varied in size
>> - the WYSIWYG-editor "features" faulty handling (cf. http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item1392)
>>
>> =>  Virtual Machine image / software appliance for novices
>> This machine features a neat and easy-to-use editor:
>>  - raw-edit features additional buttons
>>  - runs error-free also in IE7
>>  - the tab layout is easy to use, it looks neat and clear and it  
>> can easily be customized
>>  - nice presentation / layout of forms
>>
>> Why is the original version not shipped with the obviously much  
>> better editor?
>>
> I see from your video that the VM you are using has been bundled  
> with NatSkin. The standard Foswiki release ships with Pattern skin.  
> I know they are visually almost the same, but as you have discovered  
> they are quite different under the hood.
>
> So, your question really boils down to "why don't we ship NatSkin  
> with the standard release". Well, there are a whole bunch of  
> reasons. Here are some of them.
> • NatSkin's nice functionality comes at a price. There are quite a  
> few plugins required in the background, and these bloat the release,  
> increasing the amount of code that has to be supported.
> • The availability of people prepared to support the skin in a  
> public release. Pattern skin is relatively simple, and a lot of  
> people have the skills required to support it. NatSkin is  
> significantly more complex, and there are fewer people in a position  
> to support it.
> • Familiarity. A lot of people "grew up" with Pattern skin. As we  
> saw in the TWiki project recently, when WYSIWYG was introduced to a  
> large corporate, it resulted in people running around like headless  
> chickens, due to the change.
> I like a lot of the features of NatSkin, and it definitely fits many  
> user profiles better than Pattern skin. As we experienced when the  
> Foswiki.org site started up with NatSkin, it has it's own list of  
> problems. It would be great to have some of the NatSkin features,  
> such as the raw editor, separated out and incorporated in the  
> standard release, but that takes time and effort, and no-one has  
> stepped up to do it. But the Nat* family is all available for  
> download for anyone who wants to use it, and I'm sure many people  
> would choose it after a demo of the alternatives.
>
> And that's what Foswiki is all about; choice. We choose to ship a  
> simpler wiki, perhaps at the cost of some sexy features, to try and  
> avoid the feature bloat that plagues some competitors. Perhaps we  
> don't highlight all the possible features in the standard release,  
> but we are trying to address a very broad spectrum of users, largely  
> without the guidance or support of marketing. I would really, really  
> welcome someone coming forward to drive the project towards a better  
> out-of-the-box experience, but as is the case with so much free open  
> source software, it's always someone else's problem.
>
> Regards,
>
> C.
>
> --
> Crawford Currie
> - C-Dot Consultants http://c-dot.co.uk
> - A WikiRing Partner http://wikiring.com
> - landline: +44-1606-330-242
> - mobile: +44-7837-877-956
> - public key http://keyserver.veridis.com:11371/search?q=Crawford+Currie
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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Kenneth Lavrsen
In reply to this post by Martin Seibert
Martin Seibert wrote:

> Hi Kenneth,
>
> did you see this video?
> http://screencast.com/t/HGHdb9JK
>
> I think it clearly shows, that the standard editor has significant  
> deficiencies, that have been fixed elsewhere already. How can we  
> incorporate the work of Eugen and Michael for the standard? Is that  
> wanted. I definitely think so.
>
> Best regards
>
> Martin Seibert
>
> Am 09.04.2009 um 11:08 schrieb Kenneth Lavrsen:
>
>  
After having seen the video I have these comments.

First this is not a "standard Foswiki installation". It is a different
skin than the one we distribute. The problems with resizing the editor
and the JS errors is a skin problem. The word standard installation is
used many times but it is not. It is a special VM that has little to do
with the real release.

One of the remarks in the video is "when I open the standard editor -
when I want to save I have to scroll." And later the rich text editor is
shown not to have this problem.
But this is actually one of the major problems with that editor and one
of the reasons it was impossible to edit foswiki.org before we changed
to pattern on my Netbook PCs.
On a 9" or 10" Netbook PC where the screen resolution is 1024 x 600 the
other editor is impossible to use. It always uses the same space for the
top tab and the tool bar and the lower buttons for saving.
On the Netbook PC you end up a text area that is 3 or 4 lines tall.
Impossible to use in practical. That editor looks good on your large
monitor but it is not working on a Netbook PC and any editor we
distribute MUST work on these now very very popular small PCs. At work I
use a Netbook PC with an ADSL 3G modem to allow me to develop outside
the corporate firewall. When I released 1.0.0 while in Canada all my
work was done on my Netbook. It is essential that we can use thise small
practical computers. They have come to stay and I bet half of you now
have one or will have one before the end of the year. The Atom based
machines are so dirt cheap now and in Denmark the GSM operators now pay
half the computer when you make a new 3G subscription. These small PCs
explode in popularity now and we just cannot ignore them.

Even worse when you go to a handheld device.  There the editor does not
work at all. The raw text editor we ship today may require that you
scroll down but it works great on 600 pixels and it is possible to use
it on a hand held. The expense is that you must scroll. But even
PatternSkin and its normal editor is a nightmare on a mobile phone so
here we need a different solution.

Naturally the solution for this is to combine the best of both worlds
and make a change to the nicer editor so it also works on small screens.
There are many possible solutions to this. But the message is that there
is work to do. You cannot just replace the current editor with the
other. I would suggest replacing the lower save buttons to additional
tool bar buttons. And I would let the javascript not allow the text
field below a certain height enabling scroll bars if you go below a
certain height of the browser window. That would make the editor work
like today on a large monitor and with scroll bar on the small like we
know from the default editor. With the save button in the top tool bar
and the minimum size set for 600 pixel screen height I would think you
would normally not need to scroll to save.

There are other problems with the smarter editor. The forms are edited
by selecting a tab and then you see the form instead of topic content.
That is in 95% of the cases very smart. But many incl myself have
applications where we have  a special view template showing the form at
the top and there it will work very badly that you end up in the empty
topic text field and has to click a tab to get to the form. The whole
idea with moving the form to the top is that the user see the form as
the main input area and the topic text field is just like an additional
free format area for additional information. This use pattern has to be
addressed by the editor. Again it can be solved but it requires a
technical solution and more work. A solution for this could be that you
could set the default tab shown to form in the view template.

There are also a few other features that are NatSkin only that needs to
be removed in case of using PatternSkin.

So.

Nice video. Good input. But the editor needs more work before we could
use it as standard. But the work missing is minor compared to what has
already been implemented. The hard work is done and the uder interface
in the editor is intuitive and fast and works well. But we need some
changes to integrate it with PatternSkin and to address Netbook computers.

For the very small mobile devices we need a mobile skin like we see more
and more on many internet sites.

On the download page we need the current VM better marked as a special
non-official version of Foswiki. And I still would like to see a 1.0.4
VM with no tailorings at all.  But people should feel encouraged to
provide VMs with all sorts of tailoring. Just make sure they are clearly
marked as special versions so we avoid confusion.

Kenneth

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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Crawford Currie
This is great stuff (as is Ralf's input). We really need to make sure we don't lose it, or the comments that are sure to follow. How about revisiting the personas that Carlo started developing? I'm sure at least one of them has a mobile device!

Kenneth Lavrsen wrote:
Martin Seibert wrote:
  
Hi Kenneth,

did you see this video?
http://screencast.com/t/HGHdb9JK

I think it clearly shows, that the standard editor has significant  
deficiencies, that have been fixed elsewhere already. How can we  
incorporate the work of Eugen and Michael for the standard? Is that  
wanted. I definitely think so.

Best regards

Martin Seibert

Am 09.04.2009 um 11:08 schrieb Kenneth Lavrsen:

  
    
After having seen the video I have these comments.

First this is not a "standard Foswiki installation". It is a different
skin than the one we distribute. The problems with resizing the editor
and the JS errors is a skin problem. The word standard installation is
used many times but it is not. It is a special VM that has little to do
with the real release.

One of the remarks in the video is "when I open the standard editor -
when I want to save I have to scroll." And later the rich text editor is
shown not to have this problem.
But this is actually one of the major problems with that editor and one
of the reasons it was impossible to edit foswiki.org before we changed
to pattern on my Netbook PCs.
On a 9" or 10" Netbook PC where the screen resolution is 1024 x 600 the
other editor is impossible to use. It always uses the same space for the
top tab and the tool bar and the lower buttons for saving.
On the Netbook PC you end up a text area that is 3 or 4 lines tall.
Impossible to use in practical. That editor looks good on your large
monitor but it is not working on a Netbook PC and any editor we
distribute MUST work on these now very very popular small PCs. At work I
use a Netbook PC with an ADSL 3G modem to allow me to develop outside
the corporate firewall. When I released 1.0.0 while in Canada all my
work was done on my Netbook. It is essential that we can use thise small
practical computers. They have come to stay and I bet half of you now
have one or will have one before the end of the year. The Atom based
machines are so dirt cheap now and in Denmark the GSM operators now pay
half the computer when you make a new 3G subscription. These small PCs
explode in popularity now and we just cannot ignore them.

Even worse when you go to a handheld device.  There the editor does not
work at all. The raw text editor we ship today may require that you
scroll down but it works great on 600 pixels and it is possible to use
it on a hand held. The expense is that you must scroll. But even
PatternSkin and its normal editor is a nightmare on a mobile phone so
here we need a different solution.

Naturally the solution for this is to combine the best of both worlds
and make a change to the nicer editor so it also works on small screens.
There are many possible solutions to this. But the message is that there
is work to do. You cannot just replace the current editor with the
other. I would suggest replacing the lower save buttons to additional
tool bar buttons. And I would let the javascript not allow the text
field below a certain height enabling scroll bars if you go below a
certain height of the browser window. That would make the editor work
like today on a large monitor and with scroll bar on the small like we
know from the default editor. With the save button in the top tool bar
and the minimum size set for 600 pixel screen height I would think you
would normally not need to scroll to save.

There are other problems with the smarter editor. The forms are edited
by selecting a tab and then you see the form instead of topic content.
That is in 95% of the cases very smart. But many incl myself have
applications where we have  a special view template showing the form at
the top and there it will work very badly that you end up in the empty
topic text field and has to click a tab to get to the form. The whole
idea with moving the form to the top is that the user see the form as
the main input area and the topic text field is just like an additional
free format area for additional information. This use pattern has to be
addressed by the editor. Again it can be solved but it requires a
technical solution and more work. A solution for this could be that you
could set the default tab shown to form in the view template.

There are also a few other features that are NatSkin only that needs to
be removed in case of using PatternSkin.

So.

Nice video. Good input. But the editor needs more work before we could
use it as standard. But the work missing is minor compared to what has
already been implemented. The hard work is done and the uder interface
in the editor is intuitive and fast and works well. But we need some
changes to integrate it with PatternSkin and to address Netbook computers.

For the very small mobile devices we need a mobile skin like we see more
and more on many internet sites.

On the download page we need the current VM better marked as a special
non-official version of Foswiki. And I still would like to see a 1.0.4
VM with no tailorings at all.  But people should feel encouraged to
provide VMs with all sorts of tailoring. Just make sure they are clearly
marked as special versions so we avoid confusion.

Kenneth

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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Ingo Kappler
In reply to this post by Kenneth Lavrsen
Hi,

1. Nice to read that this thread seems to trigger merging in excellent
work into the default delivery. :)

2. Kenneth Lavrsen schrieb:
> But many incl myself have
> applications where we have  a special view template showing the form at
> the top and there it will work very badly that you end up in the empty
> topic text field and has to click a tab to get to the form.

I've been wondering already how to move a form from the bottom to the
top but when trying to find it described, it didn't seem to be written.
Maybe I missed it or is using a special template as just stated above
the only way? Can you provide or point me to a short description about
how to do that?

I am just wondering if having something like a radio button or similar
to define if the form should be on the top or the bottom would be a nice
feature.

Thanks, Ingo

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Re: Migrate NatSkin Raw Editor and tweaked Virtual Machine Editor in Standard

Arthur Clemens

On 9 apr 2009, at 21:56, Ingo Kappler wrote:

> I've been wondering already how to move a form from the bottom to the
> top but when trying to find it described, it didn't seem to be  
> written.
> Maybe I missed it or is using a special template as just stated above
> the only way? Can you provide or point me to a short description about
> how to do that?

System/PatternSkinCustomization. But that's not NatSkin.

Arthur

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