upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

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upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Les Mikesell
I need to move an old 4.x twiki from CentOS5 to CentOS 7 to extend its
life, and as a matter of course expected to also update the twiki
code.   However, I see that the current version no longer supports the
kinosearch plugin.   I'm somewhat shocked that changes would be pushed
that break the indexed/attachment search facility.  A web site without
a good search would be like using the internet without google.
Whatever other changes might be in the update are way less important
to me than the ability to find the site content and I'm guessing that
a lot of others have had the same issue.

It does look feasible to move the old twiki code to CentOS 7, building
a back-rev kinosearch package and fixing an assortment of perl syntax
problems that perl 5.16 complains about, so I'll probably do that as a
first step.   However, I see that foswiki has a way to use solr for
searches.    Can someone comment on the issues I'd likely have in
moving to foswiki (I see you _don't_ have the BackupRestore plugin
that works nicely for twiki upgrades...)?    And also on how solr
works in comparison to kinosearch and any issues with that conversion?
  Are there there parsers/stringifiers that work well for xlsx/docx,
etc.?

Thanks in advance for any advice...

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Markus Ueberall
Regarding the mentioned "perl syntax problems"--before changing the
code, did you consider using Perlbrew (http://perlbrew.pl/) and stay
with 4.x in a first step? IMHO this should be less error-prone. Once
this runs on CentOS 7, you can think about the migration and
back-to-back tests.

Kind regards, Markus


Am 18.04.2015 um 19:44 schrieb Les Mikesell:

> I need to move an old 4.x twiki from CentOS5 to CentOS 7 to extend its
> life, and as a matter of course expected to also update the twiki
> code.   However, I see that the current version no longer supports the
> kinosearch plugin.   I'm somewhat shocked that changes would be pushed
> that break the indexed/attachment search facility.  A web site without
> a good search would be like using the internet without google.
> Whatever other changes might be in the update are way less important
> to me than the ability to find the site content and I'm guessing that
> a lot of others have had the same issue.
>
> It does look feasible to move the old twiki code to CentOS 7, building
> a back-rev kinosearch package and fixing an assortment of perl syntax
> problems that perl 5.16 complains about, so I'll probably do that as a
> first step.   However, I see that foswiki has a way to use solr for
> searches.    Can someone comment on the issues I'd likely have in
> moving to foswiki (I see you _don't_ have the BackupRestore plugin
> that works nicely for twiki upgrades...)?    And also on how solr
> works in comparison to kinosearch and any issues with that conversion?
>   Are there there parsers/stringifiers that work well for xlsx/docx,
> etc.?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice...
>



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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Les Mikesell
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:02 AM, Markus Ueberall
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Regarding the mentioned "perl syntax problems"--before changing the
> code, did you consider using Perlbrew (http://perlbrew.pl/) and stay
> with 4.x in a first step? IMHO this should be less error-prone. Once
> this runs on CentOS 7, you can think about the migration and
> back-to-back tests.
>
> Kind regards, Markus

I try to avoid anything that isn't RPM-packaged as much as possible
and preferably just from CentOS and EPEL to avoid any conflicts.   So
far the issues I've seen are just qw(list)s needing an extra set of
parens and complaints about 'defined (@array)', so it looks easy
enough to fix, although I don't know how to exercise all the code.
If it were any more serious I might try to figure out docker.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Crawford Currie
In reply to this post by Les Mikesell
Hi Les,

On 18/04/15 18:44, Les Mikesell wrote:
> searches.    Can someone comment on the issues I'd likely have in
> moving to foswiki (I see you _don't_ have the BackupRestore plugin
> that works nicely for twiki upgrades...)?
Since Foswiki was forked from TWiki 4, you can reasonably expect that
any issues documented in the upgrade notes for Foswiki are going to
apply to you, so you should review the release notes for Foswiki 1.0.0
through 1.1.9.

With regard to the BackupRestore plugin, I haven't looked at the code,
but Foswiki includes a TWikiCompatibilityPlugin that allows many TWiki
plugins to run within Foswiki. If that fails, porting a TWiki plugin to
Foswiki is a largely automated process. I would guess that the plugin in
question doesn't do anything particularly clever, and will port
trivially. Alternatively there are other approaches (such as keeping the
Foswiki install under version control) that provide a better solution to
this problem.

Regards,

C.


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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Crawford Currie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Les,
>
> On 18/04/15 18:44, Les Mikesell wrote:
>> searches.    Can someone comment on the issues I'd likely have in
>> moving to foswiki (I see you _don't_ have the BackupRestore plugin
>> that works nicely for twiki upgrades...)?
> Since Foswiki was forked from TWiki 4, you can reasonably expect that
> any issues documented in the upgrade notes for Foswiki are going to
> apply to you, so you should review the release notes for Foswiki 1.0.0
> through 1.1.9.
>
> With regard to the BackupRestore plugin, I haven't looked at the code,
> but Foswiki includes a TWikiCompatibilityPlugin that allows many TWiki
> plugins to run within Foswiki. If that fails, porting a TWiki plugin to
> Foswiki is a largely automated process. I would guess that the plugin in
> question doesn't do anything particularly clever, and will port
> trivially. Alternatively there are other approaches (such as keeping the
> Foswiki install under version control) that provide a better solution to
> this problem.

Thanks - part of the point of the BackupRestore plugin is that it
knows what not to overwrite when you restore into a newer twiki
installation.  I don't know enough about the internals to know  how
clever it has to be to do that, but the instructions about doing it
manually always look fairly complicated.   But, even if the code runs
as-is, would all the filenames that it is supposed to preserve be the
same for Foswiki?.  (Might be as simple as keeping the old userlist
from Main, but it is nice to not have to know things like that).
The part that zips up and restores the old files is easy enough and I
probably wouldn't use zip doing it myself, but what I would want is
the list of files, if any, that need to be kept from the TWiki and
Main webs, in a form easy to script into a tar/zip/rsync copy command
instead of having to wade through paragraphs of instructions and
probably retyping them wrong in a manual copy.

Going forward, having the code under version control sounds good, but
there is an inherent problem with keeping code and data together, and
the pages that may be modified both in the distribution version and
locally where you need some way to sort out the changes to keep.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Chris Hoefler
I just quickly googled BackupRestorePlugin...I've never used TWiki. It says that it just backs up user data, attachments, and the site configuration. This is fairly trivial to do with Foswiki. Just tar everything under /data, /pub, and if you want the configuration file /lib/LocalSite.cfg. As with the BackupRestorePlugin, this will not preserve skins, plugins, or other parts of the Foswiki engine. If you want to clean up the backup a little (in preparation for loading into a new install, for example), delete /data/System, /data/Sandbox, /data/Trash, /pub/System, /pub/Sandbox, and /pub/Trash. This will allow new plugins and settings to start with a clean slate. If you are using something like DBCachePlugin, you should update your indexes offline after you do the restore.

As for Solr, everything I have heard about it is that it is much more robust and powerful than Kinosearch, so that would probably be a good change for you. There is a MsOfficeAttachmentsAsHTML plugin, but I have no idea how well it works.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Crawford Currie
Keeping code and data separate - yes, this is a problem with the mixed-up wiki filesystem we inherited. Here's what I do:

1. treat all of data/System and pub/System as if it were code (what TWiki called data/TWiki & pub/TWiki)
2. treat Main, and all user webs, as data
3. use the $Foswiki::cfg{DataDir} and $Foswiki::cfg{PubDir} to park them somewhere else (often a different disk)
4. use soft-links to "pull" the version-controlled System web into the "data area"

Using soft-links lets you trivially exclude System web from the data backup, as well as providing the necessary code/data separation.

We have been experimenting with multi-implementation stores, that should ultimately let us fully separate code and data, but for now, the above has to do.

BTW Solr is brilliant.

Regards,

C.

On 20/04/15 16:10, Chris Hoefler wrote:
I just quickly googled BackupRestorePlugin...I've never used TWiki. It says that it just backs up user data, attachments, and the site configuration. This is fairly trivial to do with Foswiki. Just tar everything under /data, /pub, and if you want the configuration file /lib/LocalSite.cfg. As with the BackupRestorePlugin, this will not preserve skins, plugins, or other parts of the Foswiki engine. If you want to clean up the backup a little (in preparation for loading into a new install, for example), delete /data/System, /data/Sandbox, /data/Trash, /pub/System, /pub/Sandbox, and /pub/Trash. This will allow new plugins and settings to start with a clean slate. If you are using something like DBCachePlugin, you should update your indexes offline after you do the restore.

As for Solr, everything I have heard about it is that it is much more robust and powerful than Kinosearch, so that would probably be a good change for you. There is a MsOfficeAttachmentsAsHTML plugin, but I have no idea how well it works.


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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Les Mikesell
In reply to this post by Chris Hoefler
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Chris Hoefler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just quickly googled BackupRestorePlugin...I've never used TWiki. It says
> that it just backs up user data, attachments, and the site configuration.
> This is fairly trivial to do with Foswiki. Just tar everything under /data,
> /pub, and if you want the configuration file /lib/LocalSite.cfg. As with the
> BackupRestorePlugin, this will not preserve skins, plugins, or other parts
> of the Foswiki engine. If you want to clean up the backup a little (in
> preparation for loading into a new install, for example), delete
> /data/System, /data/Sandbox, /data/Trash, /pub/System, /pub/Sandbox, and
> /pub/Trash. This will allow new plugins and settings to start with a clean
> slate. If you are using something like DBCachePlugin, you should update your
> indexes offline after you do the restore.

The backup part is easy, since everything is pretty much contained
under one top level directory in the filesystem.  The hard part is
knowing what to restore from an old system and what to keep from an
updated application installation.   And I'd prefer to not need to know
much about that level of application internals, but instead have
something that knows all the quirks and odd filenames  and does it for
me.

> As for Solr, everything I have heard about it is that it is much more robust
> and powerful than Kinosearch, so that would probably be a good change for
> you. There is a MsOfficeAttachmentsAsHTML plugin, but I have no idea how
> well it works.

I know a little bit about Sol and don't expect too many problems,
although running a whole separate java application seems a little
heavyweight compared to the Kinosearch approach.   But, it probably
has a more stable interface to work with than whatever the kinosearch
code base has become.    I was just looking for some comments on the
conversion from anyone who has experience with both.

--
   Les Mikesell
     [hidden email]

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Les Mikesell
In reply to this post by Crawford Currie
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Crawford Currie <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Keeping code and data separate - yes, this is a problem with the mixed-up
> wiki filesystem we inherited. Here's what I do:
>
> 1. treat all of data/System and pub/System as if it were code (what TWiki
> called data/TWiki & pub/TWiki)

But, ummm, preferences???

> 2. treat Main, and all user webs, as data

And the reverse, what about updates to the base part of Main?

> 3. use the $Foswiki::cfg{DataDir} and $Foswiki::cfg{PubDir} to park them
> somewhere else (often a different disk)
> 4. use soft-links to "pull" the version-controlled System web into the "data
> area"
>
> Using soft-links lets you trivially exclude System web from the data backup,
> as well as providing the necessary code/data separation.

That sounds cumbersome and error prone unless there is an included
script that knows all of the quirky names and does it for you.

> We have been experimenting with multi-implementation stores, that should
> ultimately let us fully separate code and data, but for now, the above has
> to do.

I've always thought that filesytems were a perfectly fine place to
store and retrieve files, and hence I like the general concepts behind
the twiki design.  The messy part is just that some of the same files
hold content that is likely to be changed both in application updates
and for local configuration.   You don't need a different storage
backend for that, you need to separate those concepts with a separate
'local-override' file to hold local changes, and perhaps an
update-helper script to make you aware of new and changed options in
preferences compared to your previously installed version.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Chris Hoefler
In reply to this post by Les Mikesell
The backup part is easy, since everything is pretty much contained
under one top level directory in the filesystem.  The hard part is
knowing what to restore from an old system and what to keep from an
updated application installation.   And I'd prefer to not need to know
much about that level of application internals, but instead have
something that knows all the quirks and odd filenames  and does it for
me.

So, that's everything I just told you. You don't need to touch a bunch of different files. Everything in /data except for /data/System are your user's topics. Everything in /pub except for /pub/System are your user's attachments. Preserve those two directories (without the System subdirectory) and you should be able to migrate between installations without any problems. That is basically all BackupRestorePlugin from TWiki does...there is no other magic. Crawford Currie's suggestion is also a good one, though.

But, ummm, preferences???

Preferences are stored in the topics.

And the reverse, what about updates to the base part of Main?

It depends on how you use Main. Any system-wide stuff in Main usually defaults to a template in System, so it is the updates to System that matter, not the updates to Main. However, if you customize Main for your own purposes, you will want to keep those and they will override the defaults provided by System. See, for example, http://foswiki.org/Main/SitePreferences

The messy part is just that some of the same files
hold content that is likely to be changed both in application updates
and for local configuration.

Maybe in TWiki, but Foswiki has cleaned this up fairly well. It's really not very complicated.
 
I was just looking for some comments on the
conversion from anyone who has experience with both.

Have a look through the list archives. There are some descriptions/notes there. There is also some information here,
http://foswiki.org/Support/SolrPlugin


On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Les Mikesell <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Chris Hoefler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just quickly googled BackupRestorePlugin...I've never used TWiki. It says
> that it just backs up user data, attachments, and the site configuration.
> This is fairly trivial to do with Foswiki. Just tar everything under /data,
> /pub, and if you want the configuration file /lib/LocalSite.cfg. As with the
> BackupRestorePlugin, this will not preserve skins, plugins, or other parts
> of the Foswiki engine. If you want to clean up the backup a little (in
> preparation for loading into a new install, for example), delete
> /data/System, /data/Sandbox, /data/Trash, /pub/System, /pub/Sandbox, and
> /pub/Trash. This will allow new plugins and settings to start with a clean
> slate. If you are using something like DBCachePlugin, you should update your
> indexes offline after you do the restore.

The backup part is easy, since everything is pretty much contained
under one top level directory in the filesystem.  The hard part is
knowing what to restore from an old system and what to keep from an
updated application installation.   And I'd prefer to not need to know
much about that level of application internals, but instead have
something that knows all the quirks and odd filenames  and does it for
me.

> As for Solr, everything I have heard about it is that it is much more robust
> and powerful than Kinosearch, so that would probably be a good change for
> you. There is a MsOfficeAttachmentsAsHTML plugin, but I have no idea how
> well it works.

I know a little bit about Sol and don't expect too many problems,
although running a whole separate java application seems a little
heavyweight compared to the Kinosearch approach.   But, it probably
has a more stable interface to work with than whatever the kinosearch
code base has become.    I was just looking for some comments on the
conversion from anyone who has experience with both.

--
   Les Mikesell
     [hidden email]

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Colas Nahaboo
Also, look in foswiki data/_default/ dir. This will give you the list of "code" topics that you should not copy over from your old TWiki instance, except for 2 things:
  • WebHome is actually data and must be copied from your old instance
  • WebPreferences is more delicate: basically you should use Foswiki version, but "merge in" the relevant setttings if they apply. (acces control, macro definitions, ...)

I have made an "update helper" shell script to ease updating foswiki versions on linux, but migrating cleanly from TWiki is too involved for it. See http://foswiki.org/Support/HowDoIUpgradeSafelyACustomizedFoswikiInstallation


On 20 April 2015 at 18:13, Chris Hoefler <[hidden email]> wrote:
The backup part is easy, since everything is pretty much contained
under one top level directory in the filesystem.  The hard part is
knowing what to restore from an old system and what to keep from an
updated application installation.   And I'd prefer to not need to know
much about that level of application internals, but instead have
something that knows all the quirks and odd filenames  and does it for
me.

So, that's everything I just told you. You don't need to touch a bunch of different files. Everything in /data except for /data/System are your user's topics. Everything in /pub except for /pub/System are your user's attachments. Preserve those two directories (without the System subdirectory) and you should be able to migrate between installations without any problems. That is basically all BackupRestorePlugin from TWiki does...there is no other magic. Crawford Currie's suggestion is also a good one, though.

But, ummm, preferences???

Preferences are stored in the topics.

And the reverse, what about updates to the base part of Main?

It depends on how you use Main. Any system-wide stuff in Main usually defaults to a template in System, so it is the updates to System that matter, not the updates to Main. However, if you customize Main for your own purposes, you will want to keep those and they will override the defaults provided by System. See, for example, http://foswiki.org/Main/SitePreferences

The messy part is just that some of the same files
hold content that is likely to be changed both in application updates
and for local configuration.

Maybe in TWiki, but Foswiki has cleaned this up fairly well. It's really not very complicated.
 
I was just looking for some comments on the
conversion from anyone who has experience with both.

Have a look through the list archives. There are some descriptions/notes there. There is also some information here,
http://foswiki.org/Support/SolrPlugin


On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Les Mikesell <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Chris Hoefler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just quickly googled BackupRestorePlugin...I've never used TWiki. It says
> that it just backs up user data, attachments, and the site configuration.
> This is fairly trivial to do with Foswiki. Just tar everything under /data,
> /pub, and if you want the configuration file /lib/LocalSite.cfg. As with the
> BackupRestorePlugin, this will not preserve skins, plugins, or other parts
> of the Foswiki engine. If you want to clean up the backup a little (in
> preparation for loading into a new install, for example), delete
> /data/System, /data/Sandbox, /data/Trash, /pub/System, /pub/Sandbox, and
> /pub/Trash. This will allow new plugins and settings to start with a clean
> slate. If you are using something like DBCachePlugin, you should update your
> indexes offline after you do the restore.

The backup part is easy, since everything is pretty much contained
under one top level directory in the filesystem.  The hard part is
knowing what to restore from an old system and what to keep from an
updated application installation.   And I'd prefer to not need to know
much about that level of application internals, but instead have
something that knows all the quirks and odd filenames  and does it for
me.

> As for Solr, everything I have heard about it is that it is much more robust
> and powerful than Kinosearch, so that would probably be a good change for
> you. There is a MsOfficeAttachmentsAsHTML plugin, but I have no idea how
> well it works.

I know a little bit about Sol and don't expect too many problems,
although running a whole separate java application seems a little
heavyweight compared to the Kinosearch approach.   But, it probably
has a more stable interface to work with than whatever the kinosearch
code base has become.    I was just looking for some comments on the
conversion from anyone who has experience with both.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Les Mikesell
In reply to this post by Chris Hoefler
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Chris Hoefler <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> The backup part is easy, since everything is pretty much contained
>> under one top level directory in the filesystem.  The hard part is
>> knowing what to restore from an old system and what to keep from an
>> updated application installation.   And I'd prefer to not need to know
>> much about that level of application internals, but instead have
>> something that knows all the quirks and odd filenames  and does it for
>> me.
>
>
> So, that's everything I just told you. You don't need to touch a bunch of
> different files. Everything in /data except for /data/System are your user's
> topics. Everything in /pub except for /pub/System are your user's
> attachments. Preserve those two directories (without the System
> subdirectory) and you should be able to migrate between installations
> without any problems. That is basically all BackupRestorePlugin from TWiki
> does...there is no other magic. Crawford Currie's suggestion is also a good
> one, though.

Where is the user list?

>> But, ummm, preferences???
>
>
> Preferences are stored in the topics.

And do all of my old settings still have their same meanings?

>> And the reverse, what about updates to the base part of Main?
>
>
> It depends on how you use Main. Any system-wide stuff in Main usually
> defaults to a template in System, so it is the updates to System that
> matter, not the updates to Main. However, if you customize Main for your own
> purposes, you will want to keep those and they will override the defaults
> provided by System. See, for example,
> http://foswiki.org/Main/SitePreferences

Main mostly holds the user list,  preferences, and a couple of
modified items regarding passwords.  I use mod_pam with apache to
authenticate against either an Active Directory via kerberos or the
local linux system password file transparently instead of managing
passwords through the web service.   I haven't tackled duplicating
that mix of authentication methods on CentOS7 yet, but that's a
separate issue.

>> The messy part is just that some of the same files
>> hold content that is likely to be changed both in application updates
>> and for local configuration.
>
>
> Maybe in TWiki, but Foswiki has cleaned this up fairly well. It's really not
> very complicated.

Perhaps, but I'll have to deal with the pre-cleanup settings.

>> I was just looking for some comments on the
>> conversion from anyone who has experience with both.
>
>
> Have a look through the list archives. There are some descriptions/notes
> there. There is also some information here,
> http://foswiki.org/Support/SolrPlugin
>
But still no comparison and it is pretty vague about the attachment
stringifiers other than the name 'soffice'.   I assume that means
staroffice or the equivalent libreoffice component with a headless
installation, and that it is still handled by a separate process
between perl and the lucene indexer.

It would be nice if the official foswiki site ran it so you could see
the results, although I suppose there are not a lot of attachments in
different formats there.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

George Clark-2
In reply to this post by Chris Hoefler
On 04/20/2015 12:13 PM, Chris Hoefler wrote:
> So, that's everything I just told you. You don't need to touch a bunch of different files. Everything in /data except for /data/System are your user's topics. Everything in /pub except for /pub/System are your user's attachments. Preserve those two directories (without the System subdirectory) and you should be able to migrate between installations without any problems. That is basically all BackupRestorePlugin from TWiki does...there is no other magic. Crawford Currie's suggestion is also a good one, though.
>
>     But, ummm, preferences???
>
>
> Preferences are stored in the topics.
>

With Foswiki, you should try to treat the System (aka former TWiki) web as read-only.   Nothing should ever be changed in either data/System or pub/System, except for files  shipped with Foswiki or installed by the Extensions installer.   Any extensions should instruct you to set preferences in your Main.SitePreferences topic, never in the individual Extension topic, like used to happen.  If you are customizing templates,  the the recommendation is to use a "skin" to override topics rather than editing any files in the distribution.

If you are running old extensions, then you might run into one or two that still store preferences in the System topic, but that's really discouraged.

With that approach, often an upgrade between minor Foswiki releases can be just a unzip/tar in-place of the Upgrade package.   The Upgrade packages exclude any topics that is "typically" customized in a Foswiki installation.   Major releases however are more complex due to the extensive changes, and we don't generate an Upgrade in those cases.

The "update helper" that Colas mentioned also works very well, though it can be a bit complex if you have modified topics included in the distribution.   It's how we do most upgrades on http://foswiki.org/

George


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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Les Mikesell
In reply to this post by Colas Nahaboo
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Colas Nahaboo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Also, look in foswiki data/_default/ dir. This will give you the list of
> "code" topics that you should not copy over from your old TWiki instance,
> except for 2 things:
>
> WebHome is actually data and must be copied from your old instance
> WebPreferences is more delicate: basically you should use Foswiki version,
> but "merge in" the relevant setttings if they apply. (acces control, macro
> definitions, ...)
>
> I have made an "update helper" shell script to ease updating foswiki
> versions on linux, but migrating cleanly from TWiki is too involved for it.
> See
> http://foswiki.org/Support/HowDoIUpgradeSafelyACustomizedFoswikiInstallation

Thanks - reading that will probably be helpful, but 'too involved' is
precisely the situation where you want a program to do if for you
instead of muddling through manually and probably mistyping things.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Michael Daum-2
In reply to this post by Les Mikesell
On Monday 20 April 2015 12:34:18 Les Mikesell wrote:
> > there. There is also some information here,
> > http://foswiki.org/Support/SolrPlugin

Bad entry point. Start reading the plugin's own docu.

http://foswiki.org/Extensions/SolrPlugin

> But still no comparison and it is pretty vague about the attachment
> stringifiers other than the name 'soffice'.   I assume that means
> staroffice or the equivalent libreoffice component with a headless
> installation, and that it is still handled by a separate process
> between perl and the lucene indexer.

Using libreoffice/soffice for stringification is just one option, rarely used
as the other stringifiers do just fine.

> It would be nice if the official foswiki site ran it so you could see
> the results, although I suppose there are not a lot of attachments in
> different formats there.

See

https://demo.michaeldaumconsulting.com/Knowledge/WebSearch (standard solr search)
https://demo.michaeldaumconsulting.com/Blog/WebSearch (customized to look more bloggish)
https://demo.michaeldaumconsulting.com/bin/view/Home/WikiUsers (people search)

Solr also powers the "Similar Topics" as can be seen in the sidebar at

https://demo.michaeldaumconsulting.com/bin/view/Knowledge/CrossLingualWikiEngine

Regards,
Michael.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Chris Hoefler
In reply to this post by Les Mikesell
I guess I'm not understanding what we are talking about. Are we talking about moving data between Foswiki installations, akin to the functionality of the BackupRestorePlugin that you mentioned earlier, or are we talking about moving from TWiki to Foswiki? Those are two completely different things. If the former, everything said earlier applies. If the latter, you will have to look at the upgrade guides. This has the most comprehensive information,
http://foswiki.org/System/UpgradeGuide

As George said, updating between minor Foswiki versions will not require any serious messing around. Upgrading between major Foswiki versions may require some more work, but this will most likely be in plugin/macro compatibility issues or admin changes. Your actual data migration should not be affected. If you have custom wiki apps, those may be affected. If you are upgrading from TWiki, this will require work, but you will only have to do it once.

Where is the user list?

In the Main web. The .htaccess needed for the default login manager is in the parent /data directory. But I've been using AD for authentication for some time and it works pretty well.

And do all of my old settings still have their same meanings?

Which settings? Between Foswiki installations the settings rarely change. From TWiki, no idea, but it should be in the upgrade guide.

Main mostly holds the user list,  preferences, and a couple of
modified items regarding passwords.

So, just copying the Main web will be the easiest way to migrate between Foswiki installations. If you want to be more careful, you can try Colas' script. Again, from TWiki, you will have to read the upgrade guide.

I use mod_pam with apache to
authenticate against either an Active Directory via kerberos

Better yet, use http://foswiki.org/Extensions/LdapContrib, and you won't have to do a lot of low-level messing around with your system.

It would be nice if the official foswiki site ran it so you could see
the results,

Other than that, you can try one of the virtual machine images,
http://foswiki.org/Support/VirtualMachineImages

It will let you play around and try out things like Solr before committing to a migration.



On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 12:34 PM, Les Mikesell <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Chris Hoefler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The backup part is easy, since everything is pretty much contained
>> under one top level directory in the filesystem.  The hard part is
>> knowing what to restore from an old system and what to keep from an
>> updated application installation.   And I'd prefer to not need to know
>> much about that level of application internals, but instead have
>> something that knows all the quirks and odd filenames  and does it for
>> me.
>
>
> So, that's everything I just told you. You don't need to touch a bunch of
> different files. Everything in /data except for /data/System are your user's
> topics. Everything in /pub except for /pub/System are your user's
> attachments. Preserve those two directories (without the System
> subdirectory) and you should be able to migrate between installations
> without any problems. That is basically all BackupRestorePlugin from TWiki
> does...there is no other magic. Crawford Currie's suggestion is also a good
> one, though.

Where is the user list?

>> But, ummm, preferences???
>
>
> Preferences are stored in the topics.

And do all of my old settings still have their same meanings?

>> And the reverse, what about updates to the base part of Main?
>
>
> It depends on how you use Main. Any system-wide stuff in Main usually
> defaults to a template in System, so it is the updates to System that
> matter, not the updates to Main. However, if you customize Main for your own
> purposes, you will want to keep those and they will override the defaults
> provided by System. See, for example,
> http://foswiki.org/Main/SitePreferences

Main mostly holds the user list,  preferences, and a couple of
modified items regarding passwords.  I use mod_pam with apache to
authenticate against either an Active Directory via kerberos or the
local linux system password file transparently instead of managing
passwords through the web service.   I haven't tackled duplicating
that mix of authentication methods on CentOS7 yet, but that's a
separate issue.

>> The messy part is just that some of the same files
>> hold content that is likely to be changed both in application updates
>> and for local configuration.
>
>
> Maybe in TWiki, but Foswiki has cleaned this up fairly well. It's really not
> very complicated.

Perhaps, but I'll have to deal with the pre-cleanup settings.

>> I was just looking for some comments on the
>> conversion from anyone who has experience with both.
>
>
> Have a look through the list archives. There are some descriptions/notes
> there. There is also some information here,
> http://foswiki.org/Support/SolrPlugin
>
But still no comparison and it is pretty vague about the attachment
stringifiers other than the name 'soffice'.   I assume that means
staroffice or the equivalent libreoffice component with a headless
installation, and that it is still handled by a separate process
between perl and the lucene indexer.

It would be nice if the official foswiki site ran it so you could see
the results, although I suppose there are not a lot of attachments in
different formats there.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Chris Hoefler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I guess I'm not understanding what we are talking about. Are we talking
> about moving data between Foswiki installations, akin to the functionality
> of the BackupRestorePlugin that you mentioned earlier, or are we talking
> about moving from TWiki to Foswiki? Those are two completely different
> things.

Well, both, but in somewhat different contexts.  There is the overall
question of whether migration will result in an improvement in future
maintenance (with the missing BackupRestore plugin giving me a reason
to doubt that) and then the issue of doing the migration and making it
work again in the first place.

> As George said, updating between minor Foswiki versions will not require any
> serious messing around. Upgrading between major Foswiki versions may require
> some more work, but this will most likely be in plugin/macro compatibility
> issues or admin changes. Your actual data migration should not be affected.
> If you have custom wiki apps, those may be affected. If you are upgrading
> from TWiki, this will require work, but you will only have to do it once.

I see mentions of a 1.2 version in the works - is that 'major'?

>> Where is the user list?
>
>
> In the Main web. The .htaccess needed for the default login manager is in
> the parent /data directory. But I've been using AD for authentication for
> some time and it works pretty well.

I use an include in the main apache conf file instead of .htaccess for
configuration.   But, I have a disjoint set of users - some are in AD,
some aren't.

>> I use mod_pam with apache to
>> authenticate against either an Active Directory via kerberos
>
>
> Better yet, use http://foswiki.org/Extensions/LdapContrib, and you won't
> have to do a lot of low-level messing around with your system.

I could access AD via ldap instead of kerberos, but there is still the
issue that not all of the users are in AD - and for the set that
overlap I want them to be able to log in to the linux host with the
same credentials anyway.


> You can try Michael's demo,
> https://demo.michaeldaumconsulting.com/System/WebSearch#

Hmmm, performance seems good, but it doesn't seem to find a match for the word
'pumpernickel' which is in a docx file attached to FoswikiTestPage,
although it does find contents of the xlsx file that is also attached.
  I was hoping for something mature enough to not have to debug issues
like that.


> Other than that, you can try one of the virtual machine images,
> http://foswiki.org/Support/VirtualMachineImages
>
> It will let you play around and try out things like Solr before committing
> to a migration.

I might give that a try, although I want to understand installation
issues and things specific to CentOS 7 too.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Les Mikesell
In reply to this post by Michael Daum-2
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Michael Daum
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> Using libreoffice/soffice for stringification is just one option, rarely used
> as the other stringifiers do just fine.

I've run into an assortment of problems with  the programs as used in
kinosearch and was hoping for something better.    Running java/lucene
it might be possible to use Apache Tika and/or Poi for the content
extraction although I don't know how well they work either.

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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

George Clark-2
In reply to this post by Les Mikesell
On 04/20/2015 04:00 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
> I see mentions of a 1.2 version in the works - is that 'major'?
Yes,  Although the numbering is minor   (major.minor.patch)   Foswiki
1.2 has been a long time coming - >4 years,   and is a very significant
upgrade.   You can see the release notes at
http://foswiki.org/Download/FoswikiRelease01x02x00Beta1

You can access the beta version of foswiki at
http://trunk.foswiki.org/    Use the same login credentials as
http://foswiki.org/     Your registration on foswiki.org covers both sites.

Some of the 1.2 docs are symlinked into http://foswiki.org for
convenient access:
   - http://foswiki.org/System/ReleaseNotes01x02
   - http://foswiki.org/System/InstallationGuide01x02
   - http://foswiki.org/System/SystemRequirements01x02
   - http://foswiki.org/System/UpgradeGuide01x02

I'll be building Beta 2 hopefully a bit later this week after some
further testing.



George


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Re: upgrade an old twiki - kinosearch equivalent?

Chris Hoefler
In reply to this post by Les Mikesell
I use an include in the main apache conf file instead of .htaccess for
configuration.

Sorry, my typo. I meant .htpasswd.

I could access AD via ldap instead of kerberos, but there is still the
issue that not all of the users are in AD

Just to be clear, ldap authentication against AD is via kerberos. It is just transparent to the client, which makes it easier to use. The only other way to use kerberos is to use something like mod_auth_krb5 or the pam modules, which are a bit kludgy for web authentication in my opinion. For users not in your AD, you can specify a secondary password manager (http://foswiki.org/Extensions/LdapContrib#Authentication), and use something like http://foswiki.org/Extensions/PasswdUserContrib to authenticate against /etc/passwd.

I've run into an assortment of problems with  the programs as used in
kinosearch and was hoping for something better.

It turns out, Solr uses the same stringifiers that Kinosearch does (http://foswiki.org/Extensions/StringifierContrib). So any issues with the latter will be present in the former, but I'm sure patches to use either Poi or Tika could be accepted.

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Les Mikesell <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Chris Hoefler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I guess I'm not understanding what we are talking about. Are we talking
> about moving data between Foswiki installations, akin to the functionality
> of the BackupRestorePlugin that you mentioned earlier, or are we talking
> about moving from TWiki to Foswiki? Those are two completely different
> things.

Well, both, but in somewhat different contexts.  There is the overall
question of whether migration will result in an improvement in future
maintenance (with the missing BackupRestore plugin giving me a reason
to doubt that) and then the issue of doing the migration and making it
work again in the first place.

> As George said, updating between minor Foswiki versions will not require any
> serious messing around. Upgrading between major Foswiki versions may require
> some more work, but this will most likely be in plugin/macro compatibility
> issues or admin changes. Your actual data migration should not be affected.
> If you have custom wiki apps, those may be affected. If you are upgrading
> from TWiki, this will require work, but you will only have to do it once.

I see mentions of a 1.2 version in the works - is that 'major'?

>> Where is the user list?
>
>
> In the Main web. The .htaccess needed for the default login manager is in
> the parent /data directory. But I've been using AD for authentication for
> some time and it works pretty well.

I use an include in the main apache conf file instead of .htaccess for
configuration.   But, I have a disjoint set of users - some are in AD,
some aren't.

>> I use mod_pam with apache to
>> authenticate against either an Active Directory via kerberos
>
>
> Better yet, use http://foswiki.org/Extensions/LdapContrib, and you won't
> have to do a lot of low-level messing around with your system.

I could access AD via ldap instead of kerberos, but there is still the
issue that not all of the users are in AD - and for the set that
overlap I want them to be able to log in to the linux host with the
same credentials anyway.


> You can try Michael's demo,
> https://demo.michaeldaumconsulting.com/System/WebSearch#

Hmmm, performance seems good, but it doesn't seem to find a match for the word
'pumpernickel' which is in a docx file attached to FoswikiTestPage,
although it does find contents of the xlsx file that is also attached.
  I was hoping for something mature enough to not have to debug issues
like that.


> Other than that, you can try one of the virtual machine images,
> http://foswiki.org/Support/VirtualMachineImages
>
> It will let you play around and try out things like Solr before committing
> to a migration.

I might give that a try, although I want to understand installation
issues and things specific to CentOS 7 too.

--
   Les Mikesell
     [hidden email]

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Chris Hoefler, PhD
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Texas A&M University
2128 TAMU
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